Approaching the bar

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In this final episode of the spring, three law students discuss their reasons for studying law, their first forays into law firms, and their impressions of a changing profession and a tumultuous world. See you in September!

Maria Kalapurayil just graduated from the University of Alberta. Sophie Poitras has one year under her belt at the Université de Moncton. And with one year to go at the Université du Québec en Outaouais, Justine Morin-Laporte chairs CBA Quebec’s student section.

Verdicts & Voices is a legal current affairs podcast presented by the Canadian Bar Association. With her retinue of expert guests, host Alison Crawford keeps listeners up to date on news, views, and stories about the law and the justice system in Canada.

Views expressed are not necessarily those of the CBA.

Transcript

Hello listeners and welcome to the season finale of Verdicts & Voices. This legal affairs podcast is produced by the Canadian Bar Association and I'm your host, Alison Crawford.

Today I'm excited to speak with three women who are studying the law in New Brunswick, Quebec, and Alberta. Each is at a different stage of their legal education and they all have thoughtful perspectives on why they chose the law, what they're learning about justice, and how the next generation of lawyers view the profession they're preparing to enter.

Joining me now is Maria Kalapurayil. She's just graduated from the University of Alberta. Actually, that was yesterday. Congratulations. Sophie Poitras just completed her first year at l'Université de Moncton in New Brunswick. And from the Université du Quebec en Outaouais, which is just on the other side of the river from where I am in Ottawa, is Justine Morin-Laporte in Gatineau. She's going into her third year and is the president of the student section of the Quebec branch of the Canadian Bar Association.

Bienvenue, welcome. I'd like to start off by asking each of you to tell me why you decided to go to law school. I I'll start with you, Maria.

Maria Kalapurayil

Absolutely. Again, thanks for having us here today. So, my law school journey actually starts way before I was born. My parents were both lawyers. They met through law school. But this was back in India. And so, when I was six years old, we moved here as a family. And my parents had abandoned their career back in India to do that. However, when we came here, my mom had tried to pursue her legal career here and tried to go through the accreditation process here but was unfortunately unsuccessful. It was really inaccessible at that time for a young immigrant family. And so, I never thought about law. Law actually wasn't something we talked about much in my house growing up, even though that's how my parents met.

And then when I was in Grade 11, I decided to take a job at the legislature as a page. And that really exposed me to the world of social justice, politics, and social issues. And that's when I… It was kind of like a eureka moment where my eyes opened and I realized that this is what I was called to do and this is what I was meant to do. So since then, I shifted my path from wanting to do science, which I initially thought I was interested in, to doing law and pursuing more of a social justice route.

Alison

I hope your parents are pleased with that.

Maria Kalapurayil

Yes, they are now.

Alison

That's great. What about you, Sophie?

Sophie Poitras

For me, I would say it's a mix of a couple things. I was never really sure what I wanted to do, but I grew up in a family where they were very like arts and like social sciences people. My dad was like a politics reporter and my mom's actually a lawyer by training as well. So, I was kind of always like leaning in the direction, but I think it really is solidified for me in my undergrad. So, I did history and I think, through that degree, I really learned the importance of law and the development of history and society and stuff and how important legal systems are. So, I think that kind of inspired it. And then through my undergrad as well, I participated in a moot just because I was like, why not try it? And then I really enjoyed that experience. So, then I was like, I should just apply.

Alison

Wow, secret recruiting tool is the student moot. And Justine, what about you?

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yeah, so I grew up in Gatineau, so across the river from Ottawa and so I guess from an early age I was familiar with places like the Parliament and the Supreme Court and I would visit them sometimes at elementary school and I was told that's where decisions were made. And I guess it always sparked some kind of curiosity in me. The fact that f from those institutions, the laws or the decisions that were made could have an impact not only on individual rights but across the country. And so I guess there's a big part of that.

And a more personal experience I would say was entering the workforce. As a young teenager, I was suddenly sometimes witnessing situations where, I guess, there were some issues with rights. Sometimes it was my colleagues, sometimes friends. And I think as a young teenager, when it's your first work experience, you're not necessarily aware of your rights in terms of schedules, hours, even maybe protection against harassment. And I guess that was a big part of it too. And the first time I really realized that our rights sometimes have to be be fought for. So I guess that would be that. And just like Sophie, during my CEGEP, so my two years of preparation before university, I participated in moot and debate, more in a casual way, but I really, really did enjoy it the first times I did that, and I knew that it was something I wanted to pursue too, and law school seemed like a great place to be doing that.

Alison

I love hearing the passion in all three of your voices when you're talking about the law. Now, how would you describe the ratio of women to men in law school? Because some people might be wondering why I'm speaking to three women instead of like two guys and a woman or something like that. What can you tell me? Maybe Sophie you can you can start first.

Sophie Poitras

The ratio? Well, at least for me in my class, we're a very small class. We're about like 35 to 40 people. But I would say out of that group, there's only like fewer than 10 guys, which is obviously a very, like, visible ratio when you're sitting in the room, which I think is great. I think, like, not only in law, but in other professions as well, you see it more and more. I think there's like a tendency in academia that more and more women are being encouraged to pursue higher education. So, I think it's really amazing to see and I think that's probably why there's a lot of women in law school. That being said, if you go look in law firms and partners from firms, obviously the ratio is not the same. So, there's still a lot of work to be done. But I think it's an amazing start and it's great that so many women are pursuing the law.

Alison

Yeah. And what about you, Maria?

Maria Kalapurayil

I absolutely have to echo what Sophie said. Each class, so our first year, second year, and third year classes, are about 180 students divided into three cohorts of 60. And even though it's maybe not a visible division of genders, I think it is telling that there are more women. And just as Sophie said, it's exciting and it's important that women are there and dominate that space.

However, I don't think that trend necessarily continues on when we go into the professional career, whether that be through academia or through a legal profession in practice. So hopefully that trend over time can continue to dissipate into those higher spaces as well.

Alison

Yeah. Justine, is that something you noticed as well in terms of your summer job, because you're also working at a law firm? That kind of difference between law school and law firm?

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yes, of course I really noticed as soon as I would start going to my first “5 à 7”, my first networking events, I quickly realized that it wasn't obviously the same ratio as in our classes. And for me, I did the math yesterday, and in our cohort, we’re about sixty students, so fifteen were men this year, so about a quarter, and that's a big difference obviously from previous generations. And I guess I would attribute it to the fact that I think our generation, maybe we grew up with fewer rigid ideas about what careers were for men and for women. And also I think that in that way we were more likely to choose based on our aspirations or ambitions. And also discussing with female friends or students in my class that once you go to, like she said, to law firm events, it’s mostly men still.

Alison

Yeah. How do you think that might change with your generation, Gen Z? Does anyone want to jump in here?

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yeah, well I think that a big change I've been noticing, I think, is in terms of what's… of the traditional idea of what a good lawyer is or what a professional is. I think that this idea, this constructed perception of the ideal lawyer is slowly changing. For example, in Quebec we have a lawyer who's really popular on social media. Her name is “L’Avocate rose” and she's always dressed in pink and her brand is really around being herself even through this, I guess I would say, conservative milieu, if I can say so.

Alison

Yeah, I've seen her account, and she's received a lot of criticism because she's a lawyer but she's also, you know, in bikinis a lot of the time.

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yes, exactly. And while I understand that for some maybe older generations, or just in general, it can be quite surprising, I think that public figures like her really do help change, I guess, the narrative in terms of what's acceptable and what's professional. And so, I guess that could be something that's changing in our generation.

Alison

So Maria, I'm not sure if you know, but a “5 à 7”, I don't know if they say that in Alberta, but it's like 5 to 7 p.m. kind of after work drinks, usually. And I think one way perhaps the generation could change that is to stop having “5 à 7s,” and maybe have noon-to-twos or something during the work day. So, you know, where once people have families and their daycare pickups for men and women, you know, I think that's part of it as well.

Maria Kalapurayil

Absolutely. I'll just jump on there. I think one of the things that I've noticed since I summered at a firm in 2024, and now I'm going back from my articles, is the mentorship is really, really strong. And you see slow changes happen. So, one is, just with what you were saying, is my firm, for example, instead of doing… will have the afternoon and the evening drinks, but they'll also go for associate lunches on Fridays. And so everybody's together. And there's a sense of camaraderie that's built and fostered through that environment. You also see examples… So, I see mentors that I have who are able to balance having children and also having a really rigorous work schedule. And so, you see more people do that, and that comes from the support of the system. And so that's the support of the firm. So, whether that be… Just speaking from a firm lens, there's a sliding scale of billable hours. So maybe you can adjust the scale so you're only hitting 0.8 of the target hours, so that you can manage having a life and having the career that you want to have. So, I've noticed that there are these positive steps being taken so that women can occupy these high positions and accommodate the other things. And same thing for men too, right? They also want families. And so, I'm hopeful that in the coming years, despite the legacy that is the legal kind of career, it will change.

Alison

Yeah. Sophie, that's one of those things that that I've noticed as well, is this generation is pretty firm about standing up for their rights and standing up for what is reasonable. Is that something that you see yourself exercising? I know it's hard, just after first year and you're at a law firm, but I mean, like, have you seen role models of different ways of doing, sort of, the social side of business?

Sophie Poitras

Yeah, definitely. I think, for me, there's a lot of… The firm I work at right now, like I said earlier, a lot of the men are still, like, the partners are still a lot of the men. However, there's a lot of young women who, like, a lot of the associates, the first, second, third, et cetera, year associates are pretty much all women. And they have been really great examples for me coming in as a young law student. So that has been very amazing. In terms of standing up for, like, what is right or is reasonable, I think people, at least where I work, people are very understanding, like, as Justine and Maria said, that the legal career is evolving. Like, I think there's an idea that lawyers are very rigid, like it's a rigid profession, but I think that's not necessarily true. I think there's more and more like fluidity in the career that I've noticed. So, I have had, like… Even just the other day at work, I had to call someone, and I was being mansplained on the phone, and I texted my work provider, who's a male partner. And he told me, he was like, if I had called, I bet you I would not have had the same reaction from the person on the phone. And just hearing that from someone at that level was very, like it was nice to hear. So, I think there is mentorship in that type of area. So, yeah.

Alison

Yeah. There's definitely more awareness among any people of any gender about this now.

Sophie Poitras

Exactly.

Alison

Maria, you know, you're in an area of the country where you've been learning about justice and the judicial principles about like legal and judicial independence and the importance of the rule of law. Yet you've been seeing a lot in the news about those principles being under attack. What has that been like for you?

Maria Kalapurayil

It really feels like you're in it, you know? Because a lot of the voices around it, whether it comes to speaking up against it or providing insights around it, are the people who are teaching me my classes, my professors, or the people that I see out in practice. So, it feels much more intimate than maybe the distance you feel when you read something on the news. And these are discourses that come into the classroom, that come into the lounges with the students. And these are things that we're able to then take from conversations into our research interests. And so, I have been curious about Section 96 courts and the authority that's given to them, but also the separation of powers and how we can understand this, because the government has given us these topics to discuss.

Alison

What a gift.

Maria Kalapurayil

Yeah, what a gift, I guess. And so, with all of these things that's been happening, it's really neat because it doesn't really feel anymore like something I'm reading about. It feels like something I'm thinking about and something I get to actually put into practice, right? And these are ideas that hopefully, even though I'm going to be pursuing a corporate legal career, these ideas are foundational to any type of practice of law. And most of the corporate firms are downtown, the courts are right there. As these things get disputed and adjudicated, we'll be right there. And I'm really excited, despite the background of what's happening, it’s exciting to see how the legal field responds to these threats.

Alison

Yeah. And Justine, obviously you you've been witnessing, you know, the provincial government trying to introduce a new constitution for the province without much consultation. So, you're seeing this too.

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yes, absolutely. I think that it really serves us as a reminder that those principles, if we're thinking about the rule of law, or even like indépendance judiciaire, they cannot be taken for granted. And I think it's also a reminder of our responsibility as jurists to survey with a certain vigilance the news and what's going on.

And so yes, I think that this this projet de loi constitutionnel, it truly raised a lot of concerns, I would say, as you said, because there wasn't a lot of consultation involved. So, most of the project was almost done as the consultation started, if I can say it like that. And I know that obviously a project of this envergure requires a lot more consultation, if we're talking about civil society, but legal experts too, and obviously Indigenous communities that were really left apart from this whole situation. And as maître Forest, who was on a previous episode of this podcast –

Alison

I'll just explain who he is. Alexandre Forest is the – I'm not sure if his term is over – but he was the president of the Quebec branch of the CBA.

Justine Morin-Laporte

Of course. And on that episode, he was obviously talking about that, and he brought up the fact that the language that was used in this projet de loi was really broad and not clearly defined. And what we’re taught in law school is that when legal terms are very open-ended, well, it grants a lot of discretion to the executive in how they're interpreted and applied. And so, because this projet de loi touches on individual rights, it raises a lot of concerns and it can really cause risks in term of how those rights are interpreted, and that's difficult to anticipate.

Alison

Yeah, absolutely. And Sophie, you've been mercifully in New Brunswick. Things are pretty calm in that area. but have you been paying attention to any of this, you know, what's been going on in other provinces or has this come up in school at all?

Sophie Poitras

Yes, it has. Not too much, honestly. I'm kind of, like you said, I'm in New Brunswick.

Alison

You're not in the thick of it.

Sophie Poitras

Yes, exactly. Although it sounds very interesting to be in your guys's positions and see it, like witness it that closely. I will say something I have thought about recently with all the news coming from the US, that's something that I've noticed with the rule of law. Obviously, like they have a very different interpretation of it down there. And I think the results are very telling, especially with, as Justine was saying, with judiciary independence, it's not as much of a focus for them. And you can see the results. So, I just think it's interesting. And it's kind of a nice reminder for us to, as future lawyers, to continue to concentrate on the rule of law and to uphold its importance.

Alison

Yeah. Yeah. It is a it's sort of like a project for everyone in society. Well, I guess I should ask you what kind of law you think you're gonna practice. What about you, Justine?

Justine Morin-Laporte

Well, for me, I'm not quite sure yet. I've yet to really experience all the fields that interest me. I would say for now I'm considering, I guess, a lot of fields that really provide human contact and that really make you help people directly. So criminal law, also personal injury law maybe. Also I'm looking at family law, but I think in the bigger picture, it's, for me, the idea to be able to see a tangible impact on an individual’s life and also really be able to work with people and help them. I'm someone that needs to see results to be satisfied, in general, and I think that those areas of law really provide that. And also, I really love mooting. I co-founded the debate committee at UQO, and so also litigation would be really interesting. So civil litigation maybe, but yeah, I'm not sure quite yet.

Alison

I think the world's your oyster at this point. What about you, Sophie?

Sophie Poitras

Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. I’m also pretty early on, so I'm not quite sure. I'm definitely open-minded to everything. The firm I work at now, they do a bit of everything, especially, like, a focus on corporate and litigation. So that's been really interesting. I've been doing some real estate, which has been fun. But overall, I think I'm just trying to keep an open mind. I will say I do have an interest in international law, which is, I don't, like, maybe a bit harder to get into. But if there was an opportunity to do something in that field, I would also really enjoy exploring that as well.

Alison

Wow, yeah. And Maria, you're the new graduate. So what's next for you?

Maria Kalapurayil

Yeah. So, I will be articling at a corporate full-service firm, and I'll be doing litigation there, hopefully. And I'm really excited to, you know, get into it and to start my career off. I kind of, for me, I thought, coming in, coming from the legislature, I would do government work, and it's still something that intrigues me. But I, really, when I did recruits and got to do networking, I enjoyed the learning experience that you get at a full-service corporate firm. And the people were amazing, and I was really excited by it. So, I'll be starting there. And I'm also really passionate about constitutional law. So that's what I was alluding to earlier with my research interests. So, I'm hoping that I'll be able to continue on. I'd love to do some teaching. I did a little bit of that as a TA during law school. And so, somehow managing all of this, I'm excited to see where all of it takes me.

Alison

Yeah, well it sounds like you might have a good opportunity to work with Justine if you never needed some cross-jurisdictional examples.

Maria Kalapurayil

Oh, absolutely.

Alison

Yeah. Well look, I just want to thank all three of you for coming on the show today and talking about the law and your experiences with it so far. It's been great and it's inspirational to hear what all three of you are hoping to do with your careers. Thank you very much.

Maria Kalapurayil

Thank you.

Sophie Poitras

Thanks for having us.

Justine Morin-Laporte

Yes, thank you so much.

Alison

I've been speaking with three law students. Justine Morin-Laporte is going into her third year this fall at l'Université du Québec en Outaouais. Maria Kalapurayil just graduated from the University of Alberta in Edmonton. And Sophie Poitras is headed into her second year of law school at l’Université de Moncton in New Brunswick.

And that is a wrap for this season of Verdicts & Voices. We have covered a lot of ground in the last 18 months. I hope you have found the podcast interesting, educational, and occasionally entertaining. And I'm very pleased to say that we will be back again in September. I already have a few irons in the fire for future shows. Please like and subscribe to the show, tell your friends. And if you have any ideas for future episodes, please get in touch. You can find me on LinkedIn.

Verdicts & Voices is a Canadian Bar Association production, and I'm your host, Alison Crawford. I wish you all a fantastic summer.